More pump information needed

[olscout99]

So, I'm about to put my 'frankenmonster' waste oil heater together, and I have choices to make. I have bits and pieces of several different units, including two CK type burners. I also have two older Lanair units, one of which I plan to use the actual 'furnace' assembly of.  I'm going to pass on the Lanair burners for now because I think I can do a better job of burning with the CK kit burners. My question is how to set them up...I have choices. I'm setting the Lanair furnace on a steel shelving unit that is about 5 feet tall, both because I have it and because it makes the gun easy to work on. I have one CK unit that I described in an earlier post, it was hooked to an old hydraulic pump with regulators and bypasses that ran anytime the furnace was on which was pretty much always since it was heating a huge uninsulated pole barn. This pump is mounted on a large tank on wheels, which makes it handy, and I am considering using it that way. Anybody have an idea of the PSI I should be looking at after the regulator to feed a siphon burner?  A thought I had was to put a return line in at a T where the siphon tube starts, so that any 'excess' oil is returned to the tank. It appears that that is how one of the Lanair units I have worked, with a two line system that returned overflow to the tank from the siphon at the gun. I have that pump also that I can use, but I was leaning towards using it with a constant level tank (which I also have) that is heated. I can see pluses and minuses for both systems. My shop is unheated other than the furnace, and it won't be run much when I'm not out there unless I'm doing something that requires it to stay at temp overnight. The CL tank I have does have an over flow, but since it was gravity fed it just used a ball float valve. I have bought a separate float switch to install in the tank to turn  the pump on and off, and also bought a time delay relay that can shut the pump off if the float sticks after a preset time. So, for people who have been using the CK type kits for a while- am I better off to go with the pump option, regulated and/or with a return line, or to use the heated float tank? I have pretty much everything I need to go either way, including several 'regular' furnace oil pumps if one of those would be better suited.  It's just a choice of what method would work best and be the most dependable. Thanks!

[doug]

Which method did you decide to use to feed your 'frankenmonster'?

[olscout99]

I'm going to use the hydraulic pump setup, at least to begin with, and see how it works. I have the unit basically hooked up and I powered it up the other day to make sure the heaters, PID, and all that worked. I had power at the PID, and it was reading the ambient temp so the thermocouple was working. But the heater in the block would not come on, the relay it's hooked to wouldn't energize so I got no heating action. I messed with it a bit, I think it should work because the PID is set for the SSR output, but for some reason no go. I'm about to head out there this morning to do a little more troubleshooting, I'm so close, if I get the PID and heater and all working it's a matter of doing a little replumbing on the tank and pump (remove one filter and add two Goldenrod filters, and add a screen and check valve on a new pickup tube) so it's frustrating. If I can get the gun functioning I'm there......crossing my fingers.

[Russ]

Did you measure the voltage at the SSR to be sure you have the appropriate voltage?  If you do, the SSR should give voltage to your cartridge heater.

[olscout99]

Okay, it's still not working but I think I have it figured out.  I swapped over the two Love PID's I have to 5v output which should work with the SSR, but one won't power up completely and the other shows a set point error. I programmed and reprogrammed and I can't get beyond that, so it won't work.  In frustration I went to one of the Rex C-100 PID's I got with another setup. I wired it according to the diagram on the PID, I got lights, a set point, and a good reading from the thermocouple. It also showed the 'Out 1' light indicating that it was energizing the output. Nothing at the relay, and nothing at the back of the PID at the 'Out' terminals checking with a voltmeter. By now I'm pretty frustrated, but with the Rex I'm a lot closer than I have been.....I just need to be able to turn on the freaking heater!  I come in and do the google thing, and lo and behold, there are a bunch of 'pirate' PID's out there that were sold as SSR capable but really only had a 10 amp internal relay. I had brought one of the Rex into the house and pulled the case off, and lo and behold, that's what I have- a relay, no SSR output voltage. There is a small transformer in the Rex that puts out 12v that can be jumpered to the output to make it trigger an SSR as it is, but rather than that, I'm just going to use the relay as a switch (which is what it is) and run 24volts from my power supply through it and to the heater relay. When the PID calls for heat it's internal relay closes, 24 volts is supplied to the SSR triggering the power to the heater, voila. At least in theory anyway, we'll see tomorrow, ate too much turkey to go out and mess with it tonight!

[olscout99]

OK, I got the PID situation figured out. My PID only has a relay, as I thought, so I ran the 24 volts through it to the relay and it works fine. However, I'm getting no heat action from the heater!  I pulled the gun and tore it down, thinking I needed a new heater cartridge, and I needed to see which version of CK block it was. After I got it out, I pulled the cartridge (the older long one) and just for grins shoved the bare leads into a wall socket. That thing got hot, fast! So now I'm puzzled and more than a little PO'd that tore the gun apart when the heater works. I have no idea of the issue, but I'm going to rewire with different leads tied to the heater leads and go from there. The PID and thermocouple seem to be working fine, it reads in Celsius, it's showing a target temp of 90 C, and an actual temp of 8C (about 46F, which is what ambient was in the shop). So I have no reason to think the thermocouple is not responding, since as the shop heats up it responds appropriately.  About to head out and reassemble it all and try it again.....

[Russ]

It sounds like you are getting it narrowed down.  If your PID doesnt supply power, but is rater just a relay, yes, you will need an external power source.  It sounds like you are using 24vdc to power it?  Is your relay rated at that voltage?  If so, you should be able to run your 110v hot lead through the relay and it should act like a switch.  You should have voltage on one side, but not the other when the relay is off and you should have voltage on both sides when the relay is on.  It sounds like you have verified that your cartridge heater works, so its just a matter of getting power to it.

Good luck!

[olscout99]

One more time, two steps forward and one back.  I put it all back together, using different leads to the heater, and I tried them with an extension cord with the heater in the block before I reassembled, and it works. I did notice a frayed looking spot in the cover of the thermocouple, and made a mental note to be careful that I don't mess it up because it looked like it had been pinched or something. Nothing like being a psychic, I got it all back together and no thermocouple action. Evidently moving it around was enough to separate the wires or something at that bad spot I noticed, so I'm dead in the water until my new thermocouple arrives on Tuesday. For good luck I ordered a complete set of new PID and thermocouple also, so I don't have to wait for parts if something goes south in the future. I did get work done on the tank and pump set up today, for lack of a couple little fittings that I need to get from a hardware store (and that I thought I had, but didn't) the pump and tank are ready to go with a new pickup with screen and check valve, and a Goldenrod water block filter in line.  Getting closer, not quite there yet.