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Messages - jbartlett323

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1
User Projects & Pictures / Re: A Roger Sanders' garage heater in Oz
« on: July 16, 2015, 01:12:29 pm »
Wow, can't believe I missed this setup!  Very similar to mine, but I have custom made a manifold/burner, as both the MEN design and the Sanders design leave A LOT to be desired.  See mine here: http://wasteoilheaterforum.com/index.php?topic=409.msg2026;topicseen#msg2026
I think you have a few more bux tied up in yours though, all said and done I think I'm about $120US into this project, mostly in flue pipe.

To answer a couple of questions from your OP:

It is very important for the entire body to be air tight, including the door.  I had rust holes in the side of my body (hence why it was discontinued as a water heater), once these were plugged, it ensured all air was coming from the intake and therefore mixing with my fuel correctly and not causing a potential build-up of un-burnt gases in the body (which could theoretically explode.  Theoretically... well, actually kinda in practice, but that's another story...).  I am still working on getting the door sealed to my specs, the natural bow is kind of a pain...

The distance from the air intake to the burner is crucial!!  I assume you are using a cone of some sort?  If you pipe is too high/cone is too big, your air will spread in the body too much, basically negating the needed air volume as it passes around the outside of your burner and out your flue.  Too close will obviously have the opposite effect and not burn efficiently, as you are only burning in the middle of your burner and pushing un-burnt gas out the flue.  You will have to adjust this to meet your burners requirements, and I have had to fiddle with mine quite a bit before finding a happy place.

The longer the flue the better in draft systems like ours.  More flue means more heat in the flue.  More heat means more convection.  More convection means more air volume. More air volume means higher fuel potential, but also means you burn more fuel!  So again, you have to find the happy place.  IMO, your length is fine.

Finally, To burn hotter, ditch that burner plate! 
These heaters typically work on 1 or 2 different methods.  The Sanders burner that you are using is simply burning a pool of oil (standard method 1).  Obviously, it is never efficient to burn a pool of anything, you want to burn it as a gas not a liquid.  Once you reach Full Operating Temperature, all your oil will be gas, but reaching FOT with an in-efficient system is very hard. 
Method 2 usually includes some sort of "combustion chamber".  As was mentioned above, the Mother Earth News (MEN) style of burner uses this concept.  You use 2 plates with holes drilled (I used a small skillet and 6" dia. plate), spaced about 1.5" apart and closed on the sides.  Oil drips on top plate, is gassed and past to the "combustion chamber".  in this area is where you want your main fire to happen.  This was the first style I had tried, as it made more sense to be more efficient.  But I quickly learned it is not.  Still very hard to reach FOT, sooted like mad the whole time, and after about an hour of running the top plate holes would become clogged and basically became a Sanders burner.  Cleanup was a PITA, and it was required every time I wanted to use the stove. 
I designed my new manifold using both principles and added the idea that the more surface area the oil hits, the more likely it is to get hot enough to gas.  I now rarely clean it, have little to no soot (except on start-up of course), and have no problem getting the guy to put out as much heat as you could want.

I'm kinda in the same boat as you with my city.  What they don't know wont hurt em.  I try my best to keep smoke/soot down, again why I built a new manifold.

And yeah, if you do any of the above, move that baby away from the wall or put some sort metal/fire protection between it and the wall.  I have my wall of my 100% wood construction shop lined with sheetmetal that I stood off from the wall with rubber feet.  Wall stays nice and cool, the sheetmetal gets hot enough not to touch!  Once its running like it should, that body will be Red Hot.  I've had mine light up my shop well enough to see with the lights off type red hot.

Hope some of this info helps!  Keep tweaking that guy and it will keep you nice and toasty!

2
Drip System / Re: My Heater
« on: March 13, 2015, 09:20:50 am »
Hey, no worries!  Didn't think you were trying to do anything but converse!  sorry if I came off a little defensive, I have a bad habit of that on forums.  I think its because sarcasm and inflection just don't carry well in text, and I use a lot of both!

Anyway, you have certainly given me some food for thought.  Basically, the way I understand what your saying, is my Burn efficiency is just fine, and I need to harvest more heat from my burner.  So that's prolly gonna be the way I progress.  I can certainly turn the body of the unit into some sort of heat exchanger.  I think if I siphon heat directly off the fire, I should still be able to maintain overall temps and continue a clean burn. 
But what gets me is that others that have the exact same body as mine, have reported much lower fuel consumption, so I'm not sure the body is the deciding factor.  If I burn much lower, it doesn't always burn clean.  So I have to maintain consumption just to maintain burn... So IDK, I still think I'm missing something....

3
Drip System / Re: My Heater
« on: March 12, 2015, 02:28:39 pm »
I see what your saying, but have a few points:

A.  They are like a car engine, the better stoichiometric ratio you get, the better (or more efficient) your fuel burns, therefore the more heat is output.  Thats why car manu's are always trying to make the same fuel burn better. You are correct on the idea that fuel only has a max possible heat output, assuming a perfect stoichiometric ratio.  As such, the real question is what kind of consumption does a Manufactured unit output, since in theory they are made to burn at optimal ratio?  I should be able to output (assuming max possible ratio) the same amount of heat-per-unit as they do, and possibly I do, its really hard to measure..

B. Just because I'm not pumping soot, does not mean that the un-burnt hydrocarbons are not being released on microscopic level, much like your car does.  Therefor, it is possible I'm not hitting the correct ratio.  But, yeah, I really think your prolly right still, and may be hitting the best possible ratio for my stove.

C. Burn efficiency and Heat efficiency are 2 totally different things.  Yes, my heat efficiency could be improved, however...
You saw my exhaust is piped straight out the wall.  You are correct that I may be losing a lot of heat there, hence the fan that blows on the entire body (not pictured) and therefore carries heat all over the shop.  But it is this way by design.  The way these heaters work, because there is no forced air input, is to create a Convection vacuum.  Basically, because my stove pipe is always at an up hill run, and the majority of pipe is sticking straight up outside, convection accelerates the air leaving the pipe, therefore pulling more air in the intake.  More heat means more air.  More air means better stoichiometric ratio, meaning better burn.  Basically why most of these systems end up as forced-air units as its easier to get the amount of air you want.  If I was to run a horizontal pipe across my structure, not only would it be a fire hazard, but it would also slow down my air speed to such a point as to make the stove non-functional.  Also, any attempt to cool the pipe (aka blow air across it to carry elsewhere) will result in lower pipe temps, lower convection, and therefore lower air speed.
We are considering attaching finned Heatsinks to the exterior of the body to act as a heat-exchanger and improve Heat efficiency.

D.  I would Love (Love, Love) to run at or just above 1Liter/hr.  Alas, I am running 1Gallon/hr, or 3.75Liters/hr.  1L/hr where I was lead to believe I should be running. 

Yes, the more fuel I burn, the warmer it is.  This is truth beyond truth.  And since the fuel is the only way I really have to control my fire, its doubly true.  But when I crank it to 11, I feel like I should be getting more.  Maybe not more heat, got plenty of that to go around, but same heat at less fuel.



to add:
These burners vaporize fuel in a couple of different methods: 
First, the room-temp oil is delivered to a red-hot manifold, therefore instantly gassing upon contact allowing combustion.
or
The oil is pre-heated in the fuel line (copper only for this) and is delivered to the manifold first as a liquid until FOT is reached, then gassing as it exits the fuel line.  This method can be slightly scary without a fire check-valve, because of the idea that fire could potentially follow the fuel back to the reservoir, although very unlikely.  When we reach this point, our efficiency goes through the roof!  If we could maintain this temp, 1l/hr would be a non-issue.  But maintaining it is extremely difficult without the ability to meter to fuel or air...
There are of course all sorts of variations on this, but as far as I know they all work on the same basic principles.  Most rely on the first method, possibly adding a top and bottom plate to form a kind of "combustion chamber" and aid in the mixing of air/fuel as in the original Sanders Style burner.


4
Welcome Center / Hi!
« on: February 27, 2015, 04:16:04 pm »
Guess I skipped the welcome section!  Oops! 

Hi Everyone, looking forward to learning more about this and continuing my use of Waste Oil Heaters.

See my first thread here: http://wasteoilheaterforum.com/index.php?topic=409.0

5
Drip System / My Heater
« on: February 27, 2015, 03:41:04 pm »
Been lurking here for a couple of seasons, thought I'd add my info and help this community grow!  ;)

3 seasons ago, my step-dad and I built a MEN style Heater out of a stubby 30 gal (I think) electric water heater and other various parts laying around.  It has gone through many iterations and is still evolving, but more on that later!

This guy lives in my shop, and puts out massive heat!  One of my major goals with this was to have a system that was completely functional without any outside stimuli, AKA electricity.  So we opted for a basic drip system with gravity feed.  This has worked well, although it does present some other issues.  But, if the power is ever out for extended periods, as long as I got fuel, I'm warm!
It runs on both Motor Oil and Veggie Oil, depending what valve I open.  I have a small oven thermometer on the outside that registers a max of 500F, and its trivial to make the needle go totally buried!  8)

So after dealing with what looks to be basic issues with this guy, I have learned a lot, but haven't figured it all out.  Of course fuel delivery remains one of the biggest issues.  One of my other big issues that I have solved: the Soot and the Cleaning!
Before one of the more recent evolutions, we would have black snow flakes most of the time we were burning.  We knew this was because the fuel wasn't burning completely, but based on the system, we were doing everything right.  We would try to adjust our fuel, and it would cool too much (it really likes to keep temps up.  If we are not at Full Operating Temperature, it isn't happy), so we try to adjust the air in various ways, but could never get a good burn that way.
We took a step back.  Thinking harder, we decided that our biggest problem was the style of manifold.  We had built a Sanders-style manifold, but without buying the book or using any plans.  Basically, looking at pictures and making one.  It worked, and it worked as advertised.  Including the issues, such as hard startup, massive soot, constant cleaning, and regular clogging.
Most manifolds I have seen for non-forced-air systems rely on one of 2 methods: 1. Create a pool of fuel, heat and burn (basic plate method) or 2. Hit top plate, run/gas to small combustion chamber (middle), heat and burn.  We took both these principles into account in design, and added the idea that the more hot metal it hits, the more spread out it will be, therefor heating, gassing and burning faster and more thoroughly.  By taking 1/2" re-bar and forming grid-layers of triangles, enclosing a couple of the larger spaces to create a small combustion chamber, we created a manifold with lots of surface area yet enough space for the oil to spread and gas.  Looks a little odd but....
It has worked out perfectly!  We now have little to no soot, I haven't cleaned it in 5+ burns, its still clean every time I look at it, so its burning EVERYTHING.  Start-up literally requires dumping ~1 cup kerosene down the intake and dropping a match down it (actually, I use kerosene soaked q-tips, cause I have a ton).  Takes a bout 20-30min to get to FOT, even at 5F ambient.  It burns consistent every time I use it (not so with old manifold). 

I still have 1 big issue I haven't worked out yet though, and that's fuel efficiency.  When we built this, we were under the impression that it should burn ~1qt/hr.  Our reality is almost 1gal/hr.  Seems a bit steep to me, but that's one of the reason I'm here, to ask what kind of rates everyone else gets, and if anyone has any idea why it eats that much.

The pics below are kinda old, I need to take some fresh ones.  We have re-arranged the fuel lines, and found a better air-cone location since these were taken, so excuse the bit of soot left on the manifold as these were taken right before one of the last times it was cleaned.  I will take some new ones soon and get em posted.

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