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Waste Oil Heater => Commercial Waste Oil Heaters => Topic started by: fairbanksr6 on November 14, 2020, 04:38:39 am

Title: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 14, 2020, 04:38:39 am
I have a ra235 that I have installed and I'm having trouble getting it to fire on its own.

 It fired once the very first time I finished the stack install. It wouldn't restart so I pulled the assembly and had a carbon bridge on the electrodes so I plucked it off. After lighting the one time it won't fire.

 So far I've adjusted the electrodes, cleaned the nozzle thoroughly, confirmed that the preheaters are hot and confirmed fog inside the chamber. I have confirmed via mirror that the electrodes gets a good arc and blows when the blower turns on. I've adjusted the gun position. The oil and air compressor pump aren't adjustable. I've talked with reznor support with no help. I can light it with a torch but will not light by itself even after letting it run and trying to restart warm after shutting down. I've changed the air band settings around from 0 to 4 on both and haven't set the draft regulator yet outside of the settings the reznor support suggested at initially 4. When I get it going with the torch it does puff white smoke out of the inspection door. I have not let it run for 5 minutes as I'm worried about doing damage.

 I haven't found much luck hiring an hvac company to come look at it due to COVID-19 and the one I did find with experience told me to call reznor support.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: ShopSpecialties on November 14, 2020, 09:45:38 am
Is the spark blowing out past the nozzle ?

What is the type and quality of oil ?

What is the temp of the oil in the tank ?

When you call Reznor you are just getting a person who is reading from the manual that has no real world experience.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 14, 2020, 11:46:44 am
It's blowing past the nozzle but more straight outand not down. I'd guess total length to be 3/4" long.

Used motor oil of unknown quality presumably fired ok previously. (Heater was purchased at auction and functional before being moved) was going to try a different source. Would a can of diesel be advised? I figured since I could light it with a torch and that it did fire itself the one time the oil was ok.

Oil in the storage tank is probably chilly. I haven't measured that but ambient temp in shop is 45 to 55 degrees temporarily heated to 62-65 degrees with a propane convection heater. (I've got two CO monitors working one via security system)

No way of knowing the tech support knowledge. He told me to clean the nozzle by taking it apart (two pieces) and that was about it. Hard to get a hold of. (Over an hr on hold) local HVAC advised to call them because "that's what we'd do and charge you $65 an hr anyway".

I have a draft but not measured. (It pulls smoke in to unit heater inspection door and at baro regulator) would too little draft have a no light situation. From the manual I can leave my air band and shutter at 0 and 2 respectively? Would this be an issue? I've tried to adjust both from 0 to 5 with no change. I did observe the arc with the head out and with the Airband open it blows it up away from the nozzle like too much air pressure. I have since turned it down other than try to adjust the flame once lit and an I'm out of my element there. Will likely try to find someone experienced to adjust with instruments but figured one problem at a time.


I should add that outside temps are 32-55 degrees and my altitude is 3020'.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: ShopSpecialties on November 14, 2020, 12:27:52 pm
I have been doing nothing but waste oil heater sales/service for 30 years. I am here to help but we need to start with the small simple things and work our way up.

For right now put the air band setting to factory spec and leave it.

As long as the spark is not arcing to the nozzle and is blowing past it we are good.

The nozzle is actually 3 pieces the small jet just sits on the stem and can be easily removed. Is there any carbon buildup inside the stem of the nozzle or jet ? If so a burner rebuild needs to be done. When putting the nozzle back together always hold it upright otherwise you will smash the end of the jet.

Does the tank have a drain ? If so, open it to check for water and or antifreeze.

Reznors have a poor preheater assembly. So make sure the actual temp of the oil in the tank is at least 50*.

Lets start with this then we can move on to other things.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 14, 2020, 12:46:44 pm
No carbon built up on the nozzle. Went back together ok.

Drained water off the bottom previously over a couple days. (Maybe 2 gallons) I've had waste oil heaters before so knew enough to do that just never had to trouble shoot it. Was a clean burn and already installed.

Do I need to add a magnetic tank heater to insure above 50⁰? I've never had to do that although once the heater gets going reliably it may not be necessary.... it's a reznor single wall indoor 250gal tank and stand.

Thank you for the help and experience.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: ShopSpecialties on November 14, 2020, 01:21:12 pm
You do not need a tank heater if you keep the shop temp at 50*+.

Light it off with the torch again and get all the raw fuel burned out. It is going to huff/puff for a bit depending on how many times you pushed the reset.

After all the raw oil is burned off look at the condition of the flame.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 14, 2020, 01:50:41 pm
For sure once it's reliable it will stay above 50⁰.

I'm locked into this as primary heat source. (Rented building)
I'm not opposed as my previous shop was 100% reliable for years.

I will let it run for longer on stock air settings to see what it looks like.

Is there a good estimate of what the baro regulator should be? I'm know it changes as it gets up to temp and I should wait for that. I was just worried about the puffs of smoke coming out of the inspection port and a back fire situation.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: ShopSpecialties on November 14, 2020, 02:11:08 pm
Reznor are not the most reliable heater. The 235 was discontinued like 6 years ago. Rumor also has it that Nortek Global the owner of Reznor put an end to waste oil heaters in October.

Adjust the barometric damper so it stays closed.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 14, 2020, 02:32:36 pm
I don't doubt that. I have tried playing my case about it. Only reason I put up with it so far with the landlord is cheap rent 6 month lease. Downside is that he's older and not experienced. He purchased at auction and with the work I've done so far he's married to it now. I was going to just buy a NG heater and have them run a line but he's opposed to that so now I'm married to it.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 16, 2020, 11:24:49 am
Ok fired it up and let it go for around 5 min. Getting smoke the whole time. Did not have very much raw oil in chamber. Cleaned it ran it and tried once to restart. Airband and shutter settings are 0 and 2 respectively as per manual. Still getting puffs back through the inspection port. Tried to open the airband to a 1 and getting big puff back through baro damper and inspection door and shuttering. Shut down after that.
 What the hell am I doing wrong? I've never felt this incompetent. I've rebuilt my duramax engine and it wasn't this frustrating.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: ShopSpecialties on November 16, 2020, 02:14:47 pm
Does the flame have a bright body with orange tips ?

Is the flame steady or does it spit and sputter ?
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 16, 2020, 02:51:04 pm
I would say bright body. Fills the whole chamber and hits the target. I have a decent draft when off. IE pulls the regulator open sometimes even set on max.(6.5)

Didn't sputter until I tried opening the airband and then started shuttering and puffing smoke out of inspection door and even the damper.

Did smoke heavily the whole 5 min which is why I tried opening the airbanda bit.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: ShopSpecialties on November 16, 2020, 03:12:28 pm
What is your altitude ?

Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 16, 2020, 03:20:06 pm
3016' +/-100'

Box elder, SD 57719, USA
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: ShopSpecialties on November 16, 2020, 03:47:12 pm
Trying to figure out if the smoke is from running rich, firebox needs cleaned, or burning off excess oil.

There is 2 pump motors available, 0-3,000' elevation then 3,000' and above.

Is it smoking outside out the stack ?
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 16, 2020, 03:58:53 pm
If by smoking outside the stack you mean like operating normal but smoky? Yes. Then after I let it burn for around 5 min enough to burn off the raw(I think) and tried to adjust the flame to eliminate the smoke or get it to burn cleaner it started shuttering and puffing smoke out of the stack where it shouldn't be. The baro damper and chamber inspection port.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: ShopSpecialties on November 16, 2020, 04:06:23 pm
Sounds like you are still burning raw fuel off. Leave the settings at factory and let it run for much longer. Let it run for like 30 minutes and see if it clears up.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 16, 2020, 04:14:54 pm
Thank you again. One thing to note is that I can see the marks where the Airband and shutter WERE set at. (Almost 2 for both)

Would you advise setting to there assuming its closer knowing it came from a local auction?
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: ShopSpecialties on November 16, 2020, 04:19:13 pm
That is a small enough adjustment that should be fine.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 16, 2020, 04:25:18 pm
Also if you need me to upload pictures of anything I can do that.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 17, 2020, 11:36:24 am
So relit this AM seemed better on those Airband settings from the start. After about 5 min it started the smoke backfire again so I shut it down and need am just going to clean it out good. I can't smoke out my shop as I currently work in it. I did take 3 videos and uploaded at the link shared.

I ordered a tune up kit because it still won't start on its own which doesn't make sense. I have everything for ignition and it touches of really fast with the torch. The tune up kit is a nozzle, cathodes, gaskets and etc. I also ordered a new transformer although I'm not convinced mine is bad. The very first time I fired it up it lit right away. Got a carbon bridge and wouldn't relight. Cleaned it off and still nothing. At this point I'm thinking it has to be the ignition.

 Oil is heating fine all the way to the gun. Shop has been above 55 all week and weekend.

There are 3 videos. Initial ignition, stack smoke initial, and video of raw fuel igniting and starting the shutter.
Initial ignition https://imgur.com/gallery/nYsvx0J
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: ShopSpecialties on November 17, 2020, 09:47:20 pm
I am not a parts thrower so I do not see that getting you anywhere. You need to get back to the simple basics and diagnose better.
Are the electrodes properly adjusted ?
When starts huffing and puffing what does it look like in the firebox ?
I could not tell in the video but is it over firing and throwing sparks ?
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 17, 2020, 10:16:00 pm
Yes adjusted correctly. I'm not happy about the parts but that's what the guy wants to do next. I'll take a picture or video of the ignition minus oil of course with the burner out.

The electrodes are adjusted by the book via micrometer. Verified spark at transformer and electrode tips. Verified that it is being blown into a torch like tip(blueish 3/4"out)

Oil is being heated for 15 minutes minimum and verified heater cartridges are making cases hot to touch. Haven't verified pressure due to no adjustment no access to gauge. Can confirm that line is bled and oil flows. Have confirmed a mist like fog inside fire chamber on ignition attempt. Confirmed nozzle is clear and clean.

Cannot confirm air settings but it DOES seem to be overfiring although it ran cleanish for around 4-5 min. Cannot confirm draft but have the damper set to allow most draft from the heater. Damper does not swing.

It looks like a bon-fire when it starts to huff and puff.

It also does throw sparks around from what it seems.

Like stated I don't have the luxury of letting it burn off and smoke out my shop. I do believe that you are correct that it's burning raw and causing the smoke. I'm assuming that chokes the stack until it's over with. I have to open it up and clean it out good tomorrow(fairly easy with the massive clean out door)
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: ShopSpecialties on November 17, 2020, 10:49:21 pm
Everytime I do a burner rebuild I check spark on the bench since that is easier than using a mirror through the little door.
I would try the new nozzle first to see if there is any difference.
You may have to put a high altitude pump motor on to tame that flame down. It may be throwing so much oil out that it is not burning it all until the firebox gets hot then the excess catches on fire and it starts huffing and puffing.
Check out the pump motor to see if it is the original and if it is low altitude.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 17, 2020, 11:05:21 pm
I figured the new nozzle would be a decent first step as well. It gets here fri.

Pump looks original.... but that's a guess. I can pull numbers on it if there are any.

As far as I know it came from a local building that was sold at a local auction (should be set up for my alt). You know what assuming gets you though.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: ShopSpecialties on November 17, 2020, 11:21:42 pm
Those tiny little pump motors are junk from like ice machines. With its age might be worth it to replace it with a high altitude one.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 18, 2020, 12:20:33 am
By pump motors I assume you mean the oil pump?
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: ShopSpecialties on November 18, 2020, 08:17:06 am
Yes, the oil pump motor. The sheet metal cover comes off and you will be able to see the motor and coupler behind the oil pump.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: ShopSpecialties on November 21, 2020, 08:42:00 pm
Any updates ?
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 22, 2020, 08:43:52 am
I haven't been back yet. Wife's birthday weekend and I was waiting on the new nozzle. I won't leave you out of the situation.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 24, 2020, 04:40:58 pm
Ok update time. Ordered the tune up kit. New nozzle, new electrodes, and new transformer from building owner. Cleaned the firebox out.

Will post pictures to show adjustments (by the book)  and ignition flame.

Is my ignition good?
How much burn off should I expect from the firebox at this level of clean?

I'll wait to put it back together and attempt to light after any responses.

Pics and ignition video.
Updated https://imgur.com/gallery/XQFViuF

Draft video
Draft https://imgur.com/gallery/IEflLmV
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: ShopSpecialties on November 24, 2020, 04:58:45 pm
Spark looks good, it is shooting out past the nozzle and not arcing down to the nozzle or up to the retention head.

It sure is black in the firebox though and that one tube looks wet.

So now we need to figure out why we are running rich.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 24, 2020, 05:22:57 pm
Spark is healthy. Does not jump to anything else that I've seen in 3 cycles. Looks exactly like the video.

I was thinking that as well. You think I should worry about cleaning it and if yes do you have a good method? Brake cleaner, decreaser, soap? Brush ideas for getting in there. The tubes are 4in and 3 in respectively.

I'll upload the numbers on the pump. I tried finding the info on <3000 elevation pump and couldn't find much.
Oil pump https://imgur.com/gallery/pIM9BTv

Still not convinced it's not user error on the black box. I never pushed it more than twice before I manually lit or cleaned it out but.....I'm not sure I've cleaned it super great. I've never really cleaned it better than pictured and assumed it was "good enough". Also am lost to how to get it better other than way more time.  Used a scraper and a windshield brush. I've tried iso alcohol as I have a bunch on hand.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: ShopSpecialties on November 24, 2020, 05:28:59 pm
You have it plenty clean and the rest will burn off once we get a proper flame.

We actually need a pic of the pump motor. They all use the same A pump head but different motors.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 24, 2020, 05:40:55 pm
Duh. Not sure why I didn't upload that. I assume this is the right picture.

Pump motor https://imgur.com/gallery/AepvnsL
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: ShopSpecialties on November 24, 2020, 06:33:48 pm
Ok, that would be a 0'-3,000' pump motor.

Another thing to check to make sure we are not missing anything would be air compressor pressure. I have a gauge, hose and T setup so I can just pull the hose going to the nozzle off the compressor and plug in.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 25, 2020, 01:51:42 pm
Ok all cleaned out. Let it try to light for 30sec and no go. Lit with torch instantly. Let burn for 37ish min. Smoke was med to faint haze and then cleaned up.

***Unit turned off on its own under thermostat temp.

 Assuming because my Airband/ shutter and draft aren't adjusted.

Haven't gotten a Guage yet to measure compressor pressure. Place local is closed for turkey day.

Is it safe to assume the reason it won't light itself is too much air pressure or bad fuel(even though once it lights it runs fine)?
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: ShopSpecialties on November 25, 2020, 10:38:53 pm
Sounds like all the raw fuel is finally getting burnt off.

Does the flame look any better with the new nozzle ?

Is the combustion air blower wheel clean ?

It is highly unlikely you have to much compressed air since the older they get the less air they put out. The compressed air atomizes the oil so if air pressure is low you have poor atomization. You could have a fuel quality issue that needs the hotter flame to ignite it. Synthetics and heavier oils depending on the blend of the entire tank require more preheat to ignite. 
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 25, 2020, 11:08:41 pm
Flame is for sure more directional obviously. Still seems way too much as it hits the target and kind of splashes off if that makes sense. Still has some sparks in it as well.

Is diesel suggested to eliminate the fuel theory? I could try to run directly from a 5 gal can? The blower wheel is dirty colored but all the find are free and clear.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: ShopSpecialties on November 25, 2020, 11:35:25 pm
You could try adding some more combustion air to see if the flame pulls back. You are probably going to have to change the pump motor to get that flamed backed off.

I would not waste time with the diesel.

Crank up the thermostat and let it run more to see if anything changes.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 26, 2020, 12:12:00 am
I need to clarify that it shut itself off without reaching temp. It was 56⁰and got up to 70⁰ in 30min. Thermostat was on 88⁰.
Carlin ign controller was blinking red. I assume it overheated from too much draft.

I did try adjusting the shutter settings but didn't notice a change in flame length. I already have them set around 2 a piece.

Does the +3000' motor have higher or lower pressure?
And the big question is would that prevent it from lighting by itself?
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: ShopSpecialties on November 26, 2020, 12:37:20 am
If it overheated the fan would keep running but the power to the burner would be shut off. After it cools power would return to burner. So it could have failed to re-fire after cooling but we do not know for sure.

This is a metered pump so pressure remains the same but the volume changes. The 3,000+ will deliver less fuel. It could be throwing so much fuel out that is not atomized well leading to poor ignition by spark.
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: fairbanksr6 on November 30, 2020, 04:52:26 pm
So determined 250 gallons of bad oil. Rolled a different drum of used oil over and stuck the hose in and cleared all the lines and filter. Reprimed out off the different barrel and after 10 sec of rolling the remainder of bad oil out of the nozzle it fired right off. Really wish I would have checked all that first in hindsight.

From my previous experience with waste oil (had two at my last shop)  I have never seen it light period. It was really weird this lit with a torch even badly.

Next question is can the 250 gallons be saved somehow or do I call around to get it disposed of?
Title: Re: Reznor ra235 ignition issues.
Post by: ShopSpecialties on November 30, 2020, 05:13:06 pm
I might have mentioned oil quality once or twice. Could be synthetic or heavier oils that need more preheat. The Reznors have poor preheating so they are more finicky with what type of oil is put in. You could try cutting it with good oil/diesel if you feel like screwing around with it.