Waste Oil Heater Forum - Your definitive source for burning waste oil for heat.
Waste Oil Heater => Waste Motor Oil => Topic started by: Nubs on March 12, 2018, 06:00:52 pm
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Just wondering what people are using, I burn around 1,500 gals a winter so I'm always on the hunt in the summer. I'm going to try to post some pics over the next few days of what i am working with.
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I dont burn anywhere near that amount, so I transport in small, easy to handle containers. I have a collection of 15 gallon containers spread out around the area. I try to swap the full ones out with empties during the summer. Sometimes I run into 30 or 55 gallon barrels, but I don't have equipment to handle them, so I usually end up pumping into smaller containers.
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1500 gal is almost 6000L.
I never cease to be amazed at how much fuel some people go through.
To put it in other terms, if you conservatively say that oil has 10.5 Kw/ L, burning 6000L yields an energy output of 63000Kw.
Have you thought about closing your doors in winter?? :0)
If you were buying that in electricity at the middle of the road rate I pay, that would cost you a solid $22,000 to heat your home for..... 3-5? months?
With that sort of volume, the only readily available container I can think of which is cheap and can be used for transport or storage is an IBC. They are 275? gallon, 1000L for the modern world, and can be forked for easy loading and stacking.
I had 6 of them at home for my veg oil to settle and store the finished processed oil. Of course the 6 of them gave me enough fuel to run 2 vehicles for over a year and fuel to spare for travelers and friends.
How long is your winter?
I'd love to work out how much KW worth of heat you are going through a day!
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Hi nubs,
I bought a small tanker from a farmer that he used to bring his milk to the processors. Its stainless steel and holds about 80 / 100 gallons. Ideally I would like to get my hands on a proper oil bowser with a bigger capacity.
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1500 gal is almost 6000L.
I never cease to be amazed at how much fuel some people go through.
To put it in other terms, if you conservatively say that oil has 10.5 Kw/ L, burning 6000L yields an energy output of 63000Kw.
Have you thought about closing your doors in winter?? :0)
If you were buying that in electricity at the middle of the road rate I pay, that would cost you a solid $22,000 to heat your home for..... 3-5? months?
With that sort of volume, the only readily available container I can think of which is cheap and can be used for transport or storage is an IBC. They are 275? gallon, 1000L for the modern world, and can be forked for easy loading and stacking.
I had 6 of them at home for my veg oil to settle and store the finished processed oil. Of course the 6 of them gave me enough fuel to run 2 vehicles for over a year and fuel to spare for travelers and friends.
How long is your winter?
I'd love to work out how much KW worth of heat you are going through a day!
We heat from October to April with many days below 25 degrees and a hand full below 0. The shop is 40 x 70 with 16 foot valuated ceilings, sky lights and 3 overhead doors.
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Hi nubs,
I bought a small tanker from a farmer that he used to bring his milk to the processors. Its stainless steel and holds about 80 / 100 gallons. Ideally I would like to get my hands on a proper oil bowser with a bigger capacity.
I will post some pictures later today of what i have used for the last few yrs with good results.
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I have used this setup for a few yrs now that's simple and cheap to build, will pump around 8 gals a minute at 40 degrees and 12 gals at 80. just a hand style oil/fuel transfer pump driven by a 3hp engine with a gear reduction, can set the valves to either pump into the tank or from or bypass the tank and use to transfer from one container to another. 250gal fuel tank laid on its side.
Made a funnel so it can dropped off at the recycling centers for those that like to self serve.
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1500 gal is almost 6000L.
I never cease to be amazed at how much fuel some people go through.
To put it in other terms, if you conservatively say that oil has 10.5 Kw/ L, burning 6000L yields an energy output of 63000Kw.
Have you thought about closing your doors in winter?? :0)
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How long is your winter?
I'd love to work out how much KW worth of heat you are going through a day!
I calculated oil at about 11.2 kw/L (using 145,000 BTU/gallon and 3.785L/gal)
Howdy,
I know this is a fairly old topic but it's relevant to continue it and expand a little on Oilburners excellent points above!!
The engineer in me wanted to go further!! and I'm bored today!!
From the Engineering Toolbox
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/energy-content-d_868.html
#2 heating oil (#2 diesel) contains around 140,000 BTU per gallon.
#6 fuel oil (Bunker-C fuel oil) contains around 155,000 BTU per gallon
Waste motor oils would produce more BTU per gallon (over diesel/#2 heating oils etc) if burned efficiently because of the slightly higher carbon (soot) content but probably not more than #6 / Bunker-C oils. I think we would be lucky to get more than 145,000 btu from any automotive waste oils.
So we can probably safely assume that that waste motor oils produce should produce somewhere around 145,000 BTU/gal. (although that STILL might be a bit optimistic)
The the most efficient waste oil burning furnaces probably do not exceed 50% and even that might be a stretch. (any one here have actual data?)
Early gas furnaces (1960's -70's) were typically rated at 60% and later power vent furnaces were called 80 percenters but still vented HOT exhaust through standard "B-vent" producing exhaust temps that would burn your hand if held there.
High efficiency condensing natural gas and propane furnaces have secondary heat exchangers and exhaust blowers producing efficiencies of up to 94% and vent thru PVC plastic. You can actually hold your hand over the exhaust and it's only "luke" warm!
You cannot hold your hand over any waste oil furnace exhaust....... a HUGE percentage of the heat (read BTU's) produced are lost up the stack!
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My airplane hanger is roughly 2500 sq ft, has a 14ft ceiling and is insulated with R-21 (6" walls) and R-38 in the ceiling.
The rear door is a 12x12 insulated commercial "roll-up" and the main door is 44' wide x 14' high and 4" thick and insulated using 4" of rigid foam.
I do have some gaps on each side of the main door, about 1" on top and bottom and about 1" each side.
The only "leaks" I have are the main door which I am planning to seal up this summer.
Even so, with my 140,000 BTU/hr (rated INPUT) Lanair HL-140 (it burns about 1 gal/hr) I can bring the building to about 65F from 38F in about 2-3 hrs....but it doesn't get much higher than that.
If I'm out there for 8 hrs, I really need to run it all day. So I could essentially burn 8 gallons per day, 7 days per week if I am out there every day (which I am not)
But lets say I'm out there 5 times per week. That could be 40 gallons per week, and 160 gallons per month.
Over a typical 7month period I could burn around 1120 gallons. This is with outside temps that are never below about 10F and in most cases, not even below freezing.
Now understand, I believe I have a fair amount of heat loss through the gaps L&R, top & bottom of my main door that if plugged, would probably cut my fuel burn in half because the T-stat would shut down the furnace (that doesn't happen right now)
I also think it is probably hard to compare to an electric furnace because these furnaces are rated at BTU INPUT
Electric furnaces are rated at KW (but can easily be converted to BTU input). Just about ALL the "input" is converted to heat!! (all the air passing the electric resistance coils is heated by the hot coils................. where heat exchanger (natural gas/propane or oil) type furnaces exhaust up the stack 5-50% of the heat that goes IN!!)
Comparing an electric furnace.
A 20KW electric furnace would compare favorably to my (assumed 50% efficient) HL-140. 20kw converted to BTU is in round numbers is about 68,000 BTU (20kw = 68,242 btu)
But to get that 68242 btu from an oil furnace (at 50% efficiency) you have to burn twice that amount of oil (in BTU) or 136484 which is around 1 gallon (actually a little less if we assume 145,000 btu/gal oil )
Electric rates where I live in the PNW is about 10c per KWH (9c for the first 400kwh and 10.9c for the next 600)
Running a 20KW furnace 8 hr would essentially be 160 Kwh per day, ( using $0.10 to make it easy, $16/day or $480 per month JUST TO RUN the furnace!!)
$3360 over that same 7 month period.
Understand my wife stopped asking what time it is.............she doesn't want to know how to build a clock!!! ::) ::)
Somebody please check my math!!! I always make mistakes!!
Cheers,
Rick
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Efficiency will be in the design of the firebox and the transfer of the heat to the shop. For example your Lanair has a poorly designed firebox so you have more heat going out the stack instead of being transferred into the room. Then obviously the more ash build up efficiency goes down as the heat goes out the stack.
The heavier the oil and the more it is broke down the higher the BTU content.
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Nope, not checking your math. Sounds good to me.
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I am converting a Gas spa boiler to oil to heat my home this winter. I think as is it was around 80% efficient. The exhaust isn't cool enough to duct though PVC but it's not exactly 500oC either. the heat exchanger is substantial and close finned and I don't really expect the efficency to be any worse on oil.
I see a lot of people using draft burners on YT and they favour them for the stand alone ability. I have built a few and just done another Huge one as a yard heater to try and keep the frost away this winter. The major difference I see between the draft and the forced air type burners I prefer is the forced air type can be set up to have such an excess of air and produce such a hot flame, there is no soot or build up at all.
I can run 30L of oil through my burners and when I shut them down and let them cool, there is a tiny bit of powdery fine ash in the bottom and the rest of the burner is totally clean. You could literally do the white glove test in the burner and on any flue and it would be clean.
With the draft type, no matter how much secondary air I give them, there is always soot buildup.
I have not done much with spray type burners as favoured by commercial burners. I would think that as they basically have a suspended flame they should burn completely clean but I also read of the need to clean them so maybe not?
The spray burner I built ran totaly clean but it also depended on heat phase change where the oil was sprayed into a very hot chamber in operation which also helped the phase change from a liquid to a gas for combustion.
I have often though if there were some bricks placed in teh fire box of these commercial burners so there is a hot surface close to the combustion to help secondary combustion if that would help? Any soot to me is imperfect combustion even if one can't see smoke.
Another thing I see which puzzles me is many people seem to want to duct the flue out of a building as fast as possible. Instead of poking the the flue outside a wall and then up to the roof, one would be doing well to keep as much of the flue inside the building so it could radiate heat into the space desired to be heated rather than the the surrounding outside environment.
The less efficient the HE is the more heat out the chimney, the more can be gained by keeping as much as possible inside. The flue itself is a HE as it will transfer heat so the more one utilizes that, the better overall efficiency their heater will have.
When I put a heater in my shed I intend to put the heater at the back and run the flue all the way to the front before ducting it out the building.
Another thing I intend to do is have an outside cold air duct for combustion air. On an unsealed building you are pulling cold air in and sending hot air up the flue. Bu pulling the cold combustion air from outside, one should be in fact able to create a positive pressure in the building buy expanding the cold air rather than a negative pressure cold air is always always going to be drawn to. If one had a blower of sufficient size and ducted some air onto the heating unit so as to warm it, again the building would be pressurized with warm air which would have to help efficiency and eliminate cold Drafts.
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If the gas Spa boiler dosen't melt down a create a nice hot fire it will soot and plug up first. Then catch fire.Take effeiciency and throw it out the window.
Venting through PVC..No! At any temp.
These burners need Draft. Keep boiler warm=better burn and draft. Honeywell 6006 @180 10-20 degree diff.
Secondary air has little bearing on eliminating soot, making a clean flame. Something else going on. Tight chamber. Remember Chris Farley? Fat guy little coat.
None of these burners take a liquid to a gas. They atomize with pressure or air. I do have a vaporizer, a different set of rules.
Flue up and out as quickly as possible is good. (Durvent All Fuel) Would rather keep flue WARM Not HOT for decent draft. Remember a cold colum of air is dense and dosen't like to move.
Outside air only if the building is very tight, then must be warmed.
Kaowool can be your friend in a cleaner burn with a boiler. Depending what boiler is chosen.
Get a clean burn, good draft and don't overthink it.
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None of these burners take a liquid to a gas. They atomize with pressure or air. I do have a vaporizer, a different set of rules.
Flue up and out as quickly as possible is good.
True statement! Waste oil is so full of contaminants that it produces a LOT of ash that must be cleaned out periodically.
There is no way you can use the same techniques that is used in +90 gas/propane furnaces.
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None of these burners take a liquid to a gas.
Mine do. Exactly the principal they work on. I build them, I know how they are designed and what they are doing.
They atomize with pressure or air. I do have a vaporizer, a different set of rules.
Mine do not vaporise or spry. They use latent heat to phase change the fuel from a liquid to a gas which is what burns. Liquid does not burn. The gas/ vapor emanating from it does. The atomisation is to break up the volume of fuel to be burned and give it more surface area so it will phase change more quickly and can be mixed with air more readily.
Maybe some of what you say is applicable to commercial burners but it sure isn't over all applicable to every burner by a long shot.
If the oil is burned properly the ash is so fine it is just exhausted with the flue gasses. Run my vehicles on oil for hundreds of thousands of KM and never had to clean out the engine, exhaust or anything else.
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Got my interest, neither pressure or air atomization. Please educate me. Seems like you built a better mouse trap.
Your not in the States are you?
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There is a big difference between waste vegetable oil and waste petroleum based oil. With petroleum based oils you will have ash. The ash will be very fine powder like drywall dust and should be white to tan in color.
When commenting people need to clarify between the type oil and if they are using it for heat or fuel for your vehicle.
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OK what did I miss?
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There is a big difference between waste vegetable oil and waste petroleum based oil.
No, sorry, when burnt properly and completely in burners there is no difference except WMO produces a bit more Ash than WVO but essentialy there is no difference at all.... IF burned properly and completely.
With petroleum based oils you will have ash. The ash will be very fine powder like drywall dust and should be white to tan in color.
The ash, If burned completely, is no different with mineral oil or with Veg oil. I can't actually thing of ash from anything not being grey-white Wood, coal, Plastic....
If you do not burn something completely you can get residues but both Veg and mineral oil produce black carbonaceous material in the mid phase before it is burned completely and turned to ash.
This is a problem with draft type burners as they only get the oil hot enough to burn off the surface vapors and once the lighter fractions have been consumed there is insufficient heat to burn off the left over carbon. this is why those burners need cleaning where the forced air type with an oxygen rich atmosphere and much turbulence of the flame front resulting in the burn chamber running at hotter temps burn off all the residuals.
When commenting people need to clarify between the type oil and if they are using it for heat or fuel for your vehicle.
Given i'm the only one I can see mentioned a Vehicle, I take it that comment was directed at yours Truly.
Seemed clear enough to me I was talking about burners and only made a comparison to vehicles.
In any case, there is NO difference.
Have poor combustion in a burner, you'll soot it up. Run it clean, no deposits and maybe minimal ash if you have poor drafting in the flue or minimal turbulence in the burn chamber. From what I have seen of commercial gun type burners they run minimal excess air for efficiency ( not heating excess air) but this does not bode well for removing deposts.
If you have poor combustion in an engine on WVO or WMO or even Diesel, you will get buildup and deposits which will build up on the ring lands, stop the rings expanding and it's a fast demise from there.
With clean combustion there is no problem. The fuel is burnt in suspension as it should be completely and the ash is exhausted. Over fueling, ( rolling coal/ Smoking) is incomplete combustion. On diesel which has virtually zero ash production, it's not so much of a problem unless the engine is driven for long periods over fueled. With WVO or WMO, it's a BIG problem.
There is a way around it though in a vehicle at least, Water injection.
Have been using this over 10 years and put many others onto it and there is no question of it's effectiveness. It basically steam cleans the engine internals and dislodges any buildup and prevents any happening. Any deposits are exhausted out the tail pipe and it is my belief that even the tail pipe itself is cleaned out due to performance increases remaining even after WI is no longer being used ( dry water tank) .
It does not need to be sprayed into a Diesel in Micro fine droplets, even a rough stream up the inlet tract a ways will disperse itself Sufficiently and flash to steam in the combustion chambers. This is actually a form of cavitation and is useful in the cleaning process. I believe droplets for CLEANING purposes are more effective than vapor like mists.
In a vehicle Methanol not only adds significantly to the power output but the cleaning effect of WI.
There is no reason why WI would not work in some Burners depending on the setup. Given the " Tuneability" of a burner and the fact it is usually running at one output, the better solution would be to correct the incomplete burning in the first place. Any deposits are a sign of inefficiency and wasted fuel.
Depending on the burner, an injection of water into the combustion chamber will have the same steam cleaning effect. This is/was used in ships that burned bunker oil to fire steam boilers and it is used in piston engines to keep them clean.
In steam boilers the water is injected to keep deposits off the steam tubes and the internal passages clear. The oil they burn has a LOAD of ash content so is far more prone to leaving deposits as it is harder to get perfect combustion and good efficiency at the firing rates they use.
While I have not tried WI in burners/ boilers, my thoughts are that any deposits removed will not be burnt ( NO, water does not separate into oxygen and hydrogen and burn unless it is introduced to the sort of heat found in a Nuclear Fuel fire) but merely dislodged or suspended and WILL end up somewhere. Wether that is out of the burn chamber but somewhere in the flue or wether it is ejected from the flue completely would be the question and again depend greatly on the turbulence and speed of the exhaust gas stream from the burner/ boiler and it's stack temperature. Certainly if the temp in any part of the Flue, particularly the boundary layer was below about `120oC, I would expect to see deposits of material.
That in itself may not be a big concern as nearly all Chimneys need cleaning and if the interval is infrequent enough and the cleaning quick and easy enough, why worry?
The only thing coming out of a Burner should be the white/ grey ash no matter what fuel it is burning.
if there is any black/ soot, the thing is not running properly.
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Alright, alot here for constructive critisim to say the least.
Need photos way to much and all over the place.