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Waste Oil Heater => Waste Motor Oil => Topic started by: acarter on December 20, 2017, 08:33:35 am

Title: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: acarter on December 20, 2017, 08:33:35 am
Lets talk pumps... what is everyone using to transfer their WMO in the cold weather? The pump I have (that came with my used burner) worked ok in the warmer weather, but when it gets below freezing my transfer rate is way less than 1 gpm. It is a "gear mesh" style pump.

I'm thinking an air operated diaphragm pump, like the link below would do the trick. This is about the cheapest one I found, it is rated for 12gpm, but I would be happy for 2 or 3 when it's below freezing.


I think I've got the burner figured out (fingers crossed), this morning makes my first 24 hours without having to go reset it, so it's time to invest some money into transferring the oil.
Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: olscout99 on December 20, 2017, 10:42:47 am
That looks like a good pump for what you want to do, and that is a great price compared to what I have seen for those type pumps. I have one similar to this, only because I got a steal of a deal on it on Ebay.  It works great but is noisy. I plumbed it with a spin on filter adaptor on the outlet so the oil is somewhat filtered as I pump from one tank to the next. My 'burner' tank is a 120 gallon aluminum truck saddle tank with the pump, a Goldenrod water block filter, and pressure regulators mounted on top, so the oil is filtered before it gets to the burner also. I think the water block is around 17 microns, so the oil going to the gun should be pretty clean which hopefully results in a better burn and less clean up. I'd say go for that deal, you probably won't get that GPM in cold weather but it will still move oil.
Link to similar pump I have- https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200685591_200685591?cm_mmc=Google-pla&utm_source=Google_PLA&utm_medium=Fuel%20Transfer%20%2B%20Lubrication%20%3E%20Oil%20Pumps&utm_campaign=Ingersoll%20Rand%20ARO&utm_content=60399&gclid=EAIaIQobChMInLrGrYOZ2AIVVrXACh3l2QRxEAYYBCABEgK-RfD_BwE
Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: doug on December 20, 2017, 06:28:18 pm
 I had diaphragm pump similar to the Northern pump. I never got that much volume of that pump. It also took a enormous amount of air that my compressor could not produce. I have a small Craftsman compressor. I currently have a hydraulic pump powered with a 3/4hp 1725rpm electric motor. it moves oil at around 5gpm + when it's warm and of course less when cold.

 This summer I did the small block chevy  oil pump mod to turn it into a waste oil transfer pump. My current electric motor 3/4hp 3425rpm has trouble moving the oil in cold weather. I need to find a bigger motor.


Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: olscout99 on December 20, 2017, 07:48:45 pm
I have one of the modified small block Chevy oil pumps, but it's messy and I never got around to properly mounting it. I think if you had a slower motor of less HP you'd be better off. I have run mine with a half inch drill many times, and although it's tough on the drill it does work. I bet a good 1/2 hp motor at 1725 rpm would turn it alright. Cold oil is always going to be tough to pump no matter how you do it.
Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: doug on December 20, 2017, 08:43:25 pm
 I was thinking a slower motor 1725rpm like you suggested would be better. I still think it needs more power maybe 1hp. As it is now it will really pulls the motor down to where the motor stalls. The pump is a high volume with 3/4" fitting welded to the pump with 1" suction and discharge hoses. This was built to move large quantizes of 100gal +. Not sure a drill would stand up to that.
Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: ShopSpecialties on December 20, 2017, 09:15:32 pm
Air diaphragm pump is the best for moving cold oil but they do require a large volume of air to operate. For electric motors I would go down to 1140 RPM for cold oil. 
Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: doug on December 21, 2017, 12:55:35 pm
Thanks for the suggestion. Does a lower rpm motor of the same hp have more torque?
Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: ShopSpecialties on December 22, 2017, 01:01:28 am
Thanks for the suggestion. Does a lower rpm motor of the same hp have more torque?

Good question and I am not sure if it does have more torque.
Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: olscout99 on December 22, 2017, 10:40:15 am
That is a good question, it seems like maybe it does because most of the high torque applications like pumps and larger air compressors are driven by slower RPM motors. Maybe because it takes less starting current to start lower rpms? 
Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: doug on December 22, 2017, 01:34:16 pm
3450rpm is asking a lot for that sbc pump. Slowing down the rpm the motor may not need as much the horse power. If that makes any since.
Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: Russ on December 23, 2017, 10:43:18 am
Yes, that is an interesting question.  Wanting to know more about the subject myself, I did a little digging around.

I'm no expert in this area, but if I understand the chart on this page:

It does look like a motor of the same HP, turning slower, will have more torque.
Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: acarter on December 26, 2017, 12:55:29 pm
I just ordered the diaphragm pump from northern tool. I'll post back once I see how it works...

Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: doug on December 26, 2017, 01:42:01 pm
Russ, Thanks for the chart. if I'm reading the chart right I believe a lower rpm should have more torque. Who knew.
Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: acarter on January 07, 2018, 06:28:26 pm
Well, I used the new diaphragm pump for the first time yesterday. Much better than the old gear mesh pump. Oil and air temp was around 20 degrees F, pumping through a screen filter and hydraulic filter I probably get about 2gpm, unrestricted (no filter) probably closer to 5gpm. I'm happy with that, in the warm weather I'm sure it will get close to the rated 12gpm...

Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: Oilburner on February 04, 2018, 06:48:29 am
For a long time now I have been Using Small Block Chev oil pumps I modify like I have yet to see anyone else do.
Most people seem to use at least one of the small ports as the Pumps come. This to me is highly restrictive and basicaly a waste of their potential in this application.
I block off both the original inlet and outlet of the pumps and bore a hole to take a 1" pipe fitting in the sides of the casings right where the gears are.

I use a 300W 24V scooter motor and can get 80l min on warm oil and have yet to find anything I can't pump that is still at least semi solid.
With no insult intended, I'd go freaking nuts hanging round pumping at 2gpm and a lot higher.  I can get 12GPM ( 50L) running the motors on half power, 12V.

This is a demo vid I did ages back of an early pump in action. I improved a bit on it since
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o52BYTEau4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o52BYTEau4)

This vid explains the pumps construction a bit more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkBIYcT6j8U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkBIYcT6j8U)

I have yet to find a pump other than one powered by a petrol 5 Hp engine that will keep up with these.  I did have one running off a battery lawnmower motor for a while and that was a ball tearer.  They are good up to about 3000 RPM but you do need around 500W+ depending on the oil you are pumping to get them to that. Just because the motor is XXXX rated, don't expect it to be doing that under load!

The performance on thick oil is also very good, about as good as one could get I believe.  If you can draw the semi solid fats into a hose, these things will do it and spit it out the other end.
I have a couple I use at home with AC motors. one is 1/3HP and the other is 1HP, both 2800Rpm motors.  They work really well and move oil fast. I use these for transfering  up to multi 1000L of oil at a time in IBC's and have pumped at least 60K L with these different pumps over the years.

The only problems I have had with the things is the occasional Blockage when I have sucked up cloth Napkins which Jam the gears. Most times I can simply wind the pump back by hand ( with great effort) and  once free reverse the motor and blow out whats left. Few times I have had them wrap round the gears and had to take the back cover off the pump and clear them that way.

You cannot put shutoff valves on these pumps being positive displacement and as I araldite the relief valve closed, the pumps will either stall the motor driving them ( 1 HP no problem) or the hose bursts. they have to be started and stopped with the motor.  Some people might like to put a DC PWM motor speed controller on them if they had need for lower pumping rates.

I have been doing this a while now and always looking for the holy grail with something better but yet to find anything that beats these SBC pumps modified this way that allows for their full flow capabilities.
Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: doug on February 07, 2018, 07:36:45 pm
    Hey Oilburner,  I have watch your videos a lot.
 How does your 1/3hp 2800rpm ac motor handle waste motor oil at freezing temps and below?
Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: Oilburner on February 16, 2018, 08:47:17 am

I have no idea.  I don't live in a frozen hell hole where I have to worry! :0)
If the oil is still liquid like enough to flow down a pipe, these pumps will move it. The load on the motor will be more but depends how long you run it. I wouldn't try to pump an IBC full of frozen oil in one go with it but a 200L drum would just be OK.

If you need to pump a lot of really thick oil then you would need to get a motor up to the job and i'd be looking at something more like 2 HP so you had some margin.
Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: doug on February 17, 2018, 02:45:14 pm

 I don't live in a frozen hell hole where I have to worry! :0)

  Ouch! It's not that bad here. It still get mighty cold at times. I'm sure the pump will hold up. Just looking for someone that has experience moving waste motor oil at or below freezing temps. Looking to find out what ac motor they're using. I don't want to go overboard on an ac motor. Someone here suggested a lower rpm motor. 2hp sounds a little large. What do I know? Thanks for the help.
Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: Oilburner on February 17, 2018, 06:29:02 pm
I don't think the physical size of a 2 Hp motor over a smaller one is going to be any different.
Would a 2 HP be more expensive where you are?   Not much difference between a 1/4 Hp and anything up to a 2 here if you buy used.

You are talking about frozen oil which in my very limited experience with very cold and thick oil, puts a LOT of drag on a motor.  I think you'd be a lot better off with something bigger rather than too small.  While a smaller motor may work, a lot would depend on how much oil you want to pump. thicker the slower it will move for a start.
I just don't like to labor things. Shortens their life and they under perform.  A few bucks extra on a motor you don't have to worry about will likely make your free fuel gathering a lot easier and faster and with what you are saving, I always think anything spent on equipment for out oil endeavors within reason is a good investment.

I did look up the power to drive those pumps many years ago. it was something like 4-5 HP at full pressure. Now we aren't using pressure but we are doing more flow the way I mod them and they certainly weren't measuring on oil at freezing temp you can be sure of that. Point is while we can get away with much smaller motors, the power required by the pump in it's OEM config is a lot higher than 2HP anyway so it's not overkill by any means.

One other thought comes to mind...
Why are you even trying to muck around with oil when it is so cold?

I pretty much gather all my oil in the summer when it's the most available being I gather Veg oil.  I can go out and with a little effort and traveling around the area and pick up 2000+  litres in a day and certainly a weekend.  I put it in IBC's to settle which helps with the filtering and basically lay in more than enough stock to get me through the winter ( or year).  I filter and  put away the clean ready to go oil and do not even think of mucking around with it over winter. Come half way through spring or when I feel motivated I start filtering again and make room along the production line for more dirty oil to come in at the end.

You Wake up to these things on how to make the process a lot easier once you have been doing it a while.  :0)

Veg is a lot harder to get in winter ( people don't eat out nearly as much) it's slower to pump and usually has more water and I don't like going out on the cold mornings or nights.  In summer it's quite nice.  And of course  the oil is like water so you don't have to worry about fats and are gone to the next pickup much quicker.

I think the key to the problem may not even be the pump you use but rather preparation so you don't have to worry and can move the stuff easily and when it's not such a chore!

Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: ShopSpecialties on February 17, 2018, 09:30:32 pm

Check out what this guy uses for motors on his pumps.
Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: Oilburner on February 17, 2018, 11:51:11 pm

I have to say, I think the prices of those things are ridiculous and the flow rates, where they do quite them, very optimistic as well.
I have seen YT vids of them pumping before and for what they are and the price, I really think they are taking the mickey out of people who buy them.

It's one thing to invest in decent equipment, it's quite another to get blatantly ripped off.
They just use modified vehicle oil pumps, I think Fords, so they are nothing specialist nor do the job any better.
They use mains powered motors yet still my battery powered scooter motors I use on my pumps will eat their output for breakfast.

I also strongly suspect they have followed the design of my pumps because years ago they were just tapping into the original port of the pump. Now they are welding in 1" elbows same as I have done well before they started with their original design.

Any gear pump will do the job of pumping thick oil. Does not have to be anything special about them.
I did once have a play with those hand cranked pumps. They have a large roror/ vane inside which is good for oil and they are also positive displacement in operation. I believe there is also a twin rotor version that does higher output.
If one were to put a geared motor on one of these things which should not be hard, I reckon it would surpass the performance of my chev pumps given 1" or better size hose.

Even hand cranked, these pumps should do the job on cold oil and are a fraction of the price of those other units.
Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: ShopSpecialties on February 18, 2018, 12:23:49 am
Those Rotodel pump are not vehicle oil pumps. Rotodel is a manufacturer of a gear pumps for a variety of applications. The Baldor motors on some of their setups are the best you can buy and they are not cheap. They are not welding any fittings on since the pump heads already come with NPT threads.

You are pumping cooking oil in what appears to be a mild climate which is totally different from waste motor oils, gear lubes, etc. I only use air diaphragm pumps here in Montana to transfer cold bulk oil from outside to the inside burn tank. A hand crank pump would be ridiculous to even attempt with cold oil. 
Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: Oilburner on February 18, 2018, 08:32:14 pm

I suppose it depends what your definition of cold is.
I have done cold oil with the hand pumps and they work fine. If you are talking about frozen oil, that may be different.

The thing with the redline pumps is no matter how good the motor, they are still relatively low HP. One I saw was 1/3rd Hp.
 That's not a lot of power to move this biblical cold oil everyone goes on about and at decent flow rates.  If it was such a ridiculous idea to try and move this oil with a hand pump, it would be doubly stupid to try and use an electric pump with that low of a power rating and even more stupid to pay that sort of money for one.

I did look at another brand of US made pump years ago that that a really good flow rate. The company made a whole range of different pumps  for all sorts of applications although I seem to recall most of them were rubber vane pumps. They weren't cheap either but I think unless someone was trying to pump something semi solid, they would work.
I have a couple of these brass vane pumps I was given which are popular on boats and they seem to work well on actual liquids as they are designed rather than semi solid material. They are self priming which is what one really needs and once they have bit into the liquid, move it very fast. By design they do have a lot of inherent drag even when pumping oil though so do take a bit of power.  They are very fast though.

I still think the best idea is to wait until things get warmer instead so the oil is more liquid than solid and prepare in advance rather than trying to muck around at the worst possible time.

Title: Re: Transfer Pumps?
Post by: ShopSpecialties on February 18, 2018, 10:22:24 pm
Well we have had temps as low as -38*F this Winter so far. My customers are pumping anywhere from 55-500 gallons at a time when they have to go get oil and they do not want to spend hours/days moving this volume of oil with a hand pump.

Not all of the Redline pumps are recommended for cold oil. The one for cold oil has a 3/4 horse, 1,140 RPM Baldor motor that costs $500+ by itself. The pump moves approximately 16 GPM. I have a couple of customers that purchased this pump from Redline and they are happy with it. Yes they are expensive but they work.

I have been doing nothing but waste oil heater/boiler sales and service for 27 years here in Montana. I also design oil storage and pumping systems for my customers. Some of those customers are burning up to 15,000 gallons a Winter and they need a reliable no screw around system that works.