Waste Oil Heater Forum - Your definitive source for burning waste oil for heat.

Waste Oil Heater => Waste Motor Oil => Topic started by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:15:01 pm

Title: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:15:01 pm
I have read enough to know that combustion chamber size is critical
with siphon setups. I wonder, could I make a setup for my Miller
Mobile Home furnace in my workshop? I don't even know what kind of
burner to buy for experimenting.

The other thing that has been crossing my mind is to get a boiler for
out there and run WVO in it. There are lines going back into the
house that used to heat the workshop with the home furnace. Maybe I
could make an outdoor furnace like the wood ones that are advertised.

Then again, I'm FORBIDDEN from starting any new projects until I get
the living room and dining room remodeled. Doesn't stop me from
thinking though.

"penst8grad"
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:15:26 pm
Hi "penst8grad",
The remote boiler would probably be a better choice since the mobile home
furnaces usually have a small combustion chamber.

Keep your eyes out for a Beckett AFG. You may be able to get one for free from
a heating contractor when they make an upgrade.

Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:15:54 pm
I built a gun from the kit sold by craig at ckburners, used it last with an old
woodstove as combustion chamber and had no problems. This year I have it
installed in my miller furnace. I've only used it a handful of times on a few
cool and nights and so far so good. burns cleanly and the furnace functions
normally. no smoke from the chimney and the combustion chamber looks good. I'm
going to keep an eye on the chamber and check frequently for a while. I'm
fairly confident that the miller furnace will work. If I find that the burn
chamber is failing I'm sure something can be constructed from fire brick or
refractory cement to take its place. I would say go for it, it seems to be
working for me, at least so far. I'm using filtered wvo by the way.

synthetictomato
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:16:12 pm
synthetictomato,
I found your post very interesting. I'm going to heat my garage with a wood
stove this winter and I'm wondering if you could expand on what components you
used and how you set up a burner for your wood stove? Some pics would be awesome
too. Many thanks.
Richard in Vermont
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:16:27 pm
Does the flame hit the back wall of the chamber?
Bob
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:16:48 pm
It should just lick the back wall of the wall unless you have a target on the back wall of the chamber you will burn a hole right through the back wall trust me I already did now I went to a buderus boiler and do not have this problem!
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:17:01 pm
Joseph,
Would you mind explaining why you went to a Buderus boiler. I am not familiar
with this product and would like to increase my knowledge about these things.
Thank you.
Richard in Vermont
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:17:17 pm
I'm a certified Buderus Tech, They are by far THE best boiler out there, A real
3 pass,  they burn so much better than anything out there, I almost feel guilty
about charging a service call to clean one because I don't really have to do
much except replace the nozzle..... NUF said

John Thomas <
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:17:38 pm
I also have a Buderus boiler that I burn waste oil in. The combustion
chamber has plenty of room for a waste oil flame to burn, and it does not
have any refractory, but if you burn waste oil the burner has to be right or
you will have some unburnt oil in the bottom of the chamber because there's
no refractory retaining heat to help burn that off. That means the burner
has to be adjusted right and working efficiently. I spent alot of time
redesigning my original burner to obtain an efficient complete burn of the waste
oil.

Andrew.
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:18:00 pm
Andrew; I fitted a Beckett modified with a ckburners kit. What I had
to do was install a 10" long x 6" dia piece of ss duct just 1" back
from the Retention head. Before I did this, I had a LOT of smoke just
due to the boiler I had to work with. Today, I fitted a piece of 5"dia
duct, and it works even BETTER. The end of the duct is 12" long on the
bottom and 9" long at the top. So the cut is about 35 degrees off of
perpendicular. The SS will last a Long Time!

dave lindsay
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:18:16 pm
Dear Sir,

I noticed that you are a Buderus certified, and I want to ask you what to do
to make to my burner or boiler to burn more efficient and clean. I have the
buderus g215 boiler(the unit) but I had replaced it with a used hansa burner
where I had modified it with delavan siphon nozzle(1G/hour).
I saw unburned wvo on the floor of my boiler, and sludge to the walls.
I preheat the oil to 155C and the air before the burner. Also I work the
preheater block at 155Celsius.
I have also put on a pcb with a microcontroller, that controls everything,
and I can programme it.
Is there anything to do my boiler to make it more clean?Because I will have
very big trouble to clean it.

Thanks

Fnakos
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:18:29 pm
What pcb/microcontroller are you using? What parameters are you
programming? I am thinking of doing the same ...

Bryan
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:18:49 pm
The combustion chamber of the Buderus boilers are surrounded by water with
no refractory materials so that means the walls of the chamber are pretty
much the temperature of the water. I call it a cold chamber because there's
not enough heat to burn off the stray particles compared to a fire brick or
refractory lined chamber where the refractory gets a very bright orange to
white hot. I like that feature about Buderus because more heat gets
transfered to the water instead of heating up refractory material. I have a
G115-WS5 and it has easy access to clean it. I burn WMO, and if you're
going to burn WVO or WMO, you are going to have to clean it to keep it
running at maximum efficiency. When you burn WVO or WMO the best thing to
do is to achieve the hottest possible flame to burn the oil. They can be a
real pain to get setup because the burner has to be near perfect to get
little oil left over in the combustion chamber and no matter what you do,
there will still be some oil spray that will escape the flame. I don't have
a problem with that in mine, but I spent alot of time studying it to get it
just right and a very efficient oil and air preheater is one of the key
elements here. Any modified burner will burn great in a refractory lined
chamber with no issues, but if you really want to know how efficient your
burner is working, running it in a cold chamber will tell you that real
quick. So, my boiler is smaller than yours but I do burn 1 GPH per hour.
The problem is a little more of an issue with WVO than WMO, but what some
of the waste oil boiler companies are doing to fix the problem, including
the Buderus boiler is to put a stainless steel liner in the combustion
chamber. This will get much hotter than the boiler walls and burn off the
excess spray that gets away from the flame. The liner should be a diameter
that will give you at least a 1" - 1.5" gap between it and the boiler
chamber all the way around, and you should have enough spacers to keep it
centered in the combustion chamber, but it should be around 5 or 6 inches
short at the back end to allow the exhaust gasses to flow back around it to
get through the passages in the boiler.
Andrew.
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:19:03 pm
I've seen the Stainless liners, but in the "normal" boiler config, it seems to
cut way back on efficiency. I experimented by placing ceramic floor tile
"strips" in my wet base and they did glow bright white hot. They also turned to
dust. What I'm doing now is firing into a "mantle" (Imagine a Coleman (R)
lantern) made of 1/8 inch thick woven wire, with 1/8 inch square holes. Both
ends are open, and the thing is tube shaped, supported with 4 legs of 1/4' rod
welded on.

After 20 seconds into the firing, the mantle glows bright red, and seems to burn
off all oil droplets that would normally stick to the walls. I seem to get good
heat transfer, and the metal mantle is holding up good. I'm pleased with this
setup so far this year. I get no "goo" left behind to mess with. On a whim, I
stated injecting "make up" air above the main fire to see what happened, but
that is for another post later on. This is getting kinda long winded enough.

Lagbear
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:19:39 pm
I do somthing very similar. I have a chamber in a chamber- literally. I took a
cylandrical chamber liner and turned it on its side. Its a few inches from the
burner and a few inches from the back wall of the firebox. A few minutes into
the burn its glowing red and burning off all the overspreay. Its my second
season with this setup and I have been pleased.
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:19:52 pm
Buderus boilers are very efficient and are a snap to clean under 10 minutes start to finish. This boiler also has a 32 inch chamber which is very conducive to burning waste oil with very long flames. It is awesome I have had no issues and my flame is about 30 inches. I run a modified Ck burner with a metering  pump rather than a siphon setup with a constant level tank I was never able to get it to work with gravity feeding I needed too many btus of heat for gravity to feed it without running out so I spent 700 dollars on a metering pump and it was the best money I have spent. I know the principle is to spend as little as possible but I have saved 20,000 in three years and to spend a thousand dollars to make it work perfect is well worth it. If I can help feel free to ask everyone here is great about help each other.
Good luck
Joe
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:20:14 pm
Joe and others, thanks for the explainations. Could you explain about using a
metering pump instead of a siphon setup. Also, could a metering pump be used
with any boiler? My apologies, but I don't understand what the difference is. I
am learning some key points from you guys. I agree that $700.00 is little to pay
when there is so much to gain. Thank you again.
Richard in Vermont
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:20:36 pm
Richard With a siphon nozzle the compressed air will siphon the fuel through
the nozzle. The metering pump is a pump that pumps a small (metered) amount of
fuel through the nozzle. If your system needs 1 gph this pump will pump 1gph.
I built my own metering pump using a J type fuel oil pump (I think any type
would work) coupled to a DC gear motor and a speed controler that I could vary
the speed thus vairing the oil output. Just bench tested this by timing run
time and measuring output. The DC motor I got had a max speed of 100 RPM and my
max output is over 1 GPH. I found the DC motor on e-bay for around $50and the
speed controller was about $50 also, the pump I had from an old burner. So I
don't have much invested but have been very happy with the results. Hope this
helps
Kevin
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:20:51 pm
Do you need a solenoid valve stop and start the oil before the nozzle? How exact
on the metering do you have to be? I see a drip issue, and , or a problem with
to much oil at the nozzle. Are these issues?

Thanks,
One of the better threads in awhile. Good stuff.

"Aaron Smith"
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:21:05 pm
The Metering pump is wired to my temp controler, so it turns on when the heater
block is up to temp.
I do have a three way solenoid valve in the loop between the pump and the nozzle
so it opens to the nozzle when the pump turns on, and opens to a small bucket
under my furnace to drain back most of the oil in the nozzle when it shuts down.
The bucket holds about a gallon and just dump this back into my tank about once
a week.

"Kevin Matheson"
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:21:17 pm
Aaron
I forgot to answer your other question.
As far as setting the speed of the metering pump, my speed controler on the DC
motor has a range from 0 to 10. My system needs about .75 GPH, bench testing I
found that 5 is about right. If I want a higher output I can uurn it up, but
also have to increase the air pressure a little. I look through the sight glass
to watch for a clean burn where the flame does not hit the back of my combustion
chamber.
Kevin
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:21:30 pm
I have a Buderous (KingBuilt) 150, its is really awesome, very, very
easy to clean!

steve kronimus
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:21:44 pm
I agree, in one year I have saved over $2200 and I will have a ROI in
less than 3 years with my Kingbuilt/Buderous boiler.

steve kronimus
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:21:59 pm
Hello, Kevin,

I am new to this, setting up a system now, but, from what I
understand, you have a pump feeding a siphon nozzle? Is that
correct? Is that in place of the constant level tank?

Thanks,

Matt
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:22:14 pm
Matt
That is correct, I do not have a constant level tank. I tried that first with a
float switch and after a couple to times that the switch failed and had oil all
over the floor I switched to the metering pump,and haven't looked back sence
Kevin
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:22:30 pm
Having spent sometime experimenting with babbingtons I have decided to buy one of Craigs kits to start making savings this winter, I am setting up a second boiler outside the house in a small new boiler shed.  I will probably be running wmo since all the wvo around here is committed to the biodiesel makers. Since I don't have a siphon tank and I do have oil pumps and small low speed electric motors it seems as though it might be best to move directly to a metering pump setup.  I would need to build a pwm speed controller but I think that's possible.  My other experience of PWM controllers is in controlling the wire feed rate in a mig welder, in some of these when the trigger is released and the wire stops the controller reverses for a moment of two to pull the wire back and make for an easier arc start next time.  The same approach would seem to be a possibility with the metering pump, reversing it at switch off and removing the pressure from the nozzle and killing the drip.  What do people think? does anyone have a circuit for a PWM with this feature?  it would seem an ideal application for an Aarduino driven controller.

John
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:22:46 pm
John
You will not regret getting one of Craigs kits, work very well and good
instructions for instalation.
I'm not sure what PWM stands for, but reversing the pump should work to prevent
nozzle drip, it would take some expermenting to get the timing down. You want
to get the oil just below the center line of nozzle so that when it expands from
heat it will not drip out the nozzle. For my simple mind it was just easer to
install a solonoid valve.
Kevin
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:23:05 pm
I'm following this to see how it goes. I originally tried a level tank outside in NH (cold). After much trial- no fuel or way too much, I swapped to a metering pump.
I wanted to add Craigs heater block, but he didn't recommend it below 50 degrees. You will have to overcome the issues of starting up when cold.

Maybe a kerosene startup and flush?
Maybe electric heaters for the air?

Heating the small amount of fuel won't make much difference if you are blowing 10 degree air into it

As for the level of the fuel in the nozzle, it shouldn't matter. The metering pump should add a controlled amount of fuel. The blower will add a controlled amount of air. At the right ratio, it will burn.



Carl
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:23:21 pm
PWM stands for Pulse Width Modulation; it is a method used in motor driving to
control speed by varying on/off pulse frequency and duration.

"Chris Brunner"
Title: Re: Is it possible? Combustion chamber size?
Post by: altfuelfurnace on January 07, 2012, 11:23:37 pm
Pulse Width Modulation.

It's sort of like turning on and off the switch very fast. You can
control the on/off periods to have it move slower.

diyernh