Waste Oil Heater Forum - Your definitive source for burning waste oil for heat.
Waste Oil Heater => User Projects & Pictures => Topic started by: Chaz on January 03, 2011, 12:47:30 pm
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Hey Folks,
New guy here. Just found you guys. I have a furnace that I want to turn into a "drip style" heater and was wanting your opinions, if I may.
(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/Skulptor/DSC00137.jpg)
(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/Skulptor/DSC00136.jpg)
(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/Skulptor/DSC00138.jpg)
It's a great working fuel oil furnace that I got for converting to a waste oil furnace. It all works fine but I've chickened out of going thru all that it takes - money and time - to make it into either a siphon or pressure feed wmo furnace. Instead, I think I'm just going to turn it into a "drip" style and use the blower, etc. to blow the heat out into my shop. Seems like a viable gig to me. Have any of you or anyone you know done this? I know, it might be a waste to cut up a good working fuel oil furnace to just make a drip unit out of it but going the whole route of converting it and then the trials and tribulations of getting it running good and then the maintenence has kind of scared me off. But it would have been a good unit for it. Whataya think? :)
Thanx for looking! Appreciate your time!!
Chaz
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Well its not the right stuff to make a drip style out of. Its a good unit for pressure or siphon. The drip system is built in a tank were the gun style is fired into an exchanger.
Cheers D.E.
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Hey DE,
Yeah, I know they are different in those ways but, here's my reasoning and how I am planning on doing it. But I am DEFINITELY open to something I haven't thought of or missed.
I was figuring cutting my "door" out where the gun is and build a door for the opening. (No problem there, I own a welding and fab shop.)
The "plus" I was thinking of was that it is already set up as a heat exchanger style "tank" (water heater tank in the original styles), if you will. I also figure I can use the blower, filter and make a plenum to send the heat out to where I need it like a conventional furnace.
So I think I just have to cut and insert the intake air tube, oil line, attach an intake blower, build a door and I plan to use the 6"x6" round pipe "burner pan" with the 1/2" x 4" bolts in the bottom of it like on MEN blower modification burner. (see: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me8.html )
The bad thing, as I see it, is I will need electricity to run the blower to get the heat out. Unfortunately, I think I need to do it that way because my shop is 40'x60' with 13' ceilings. I don't think I will be able to easily heat the whole shop with a hot water style tank heater, so I want a heater to direct the heat where it will do the most good........... on me! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Thanx for looking in!
Chaz
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Wow, nice looking heater! I wouldnt cut it up and make a drip heater. I dont think that would work too well with this style of a heater. I think that would be more work than making a pressure system. Heck, its already a pressure system, you just need to heat the oil up a bit to make it spray. Did you check out my system? Building the heater block was beyond my skills, but I had a friend that was able to help me out. I vote for keeping it in tact and making it a pressure system!
Good luck in your adventure!
Russ
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I too think your furnace would be better used as a pressure/siphon heater. Your burner look a lot like a Beckett gun.
I'm not a fan of the drip style heater because of the fuel delivery system (too many variables). But, who would have thought an old water heater could make a good waste oil heater. Please keep us informed on your project. Good luck.
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Hey guys,
Thanx for your time. I really would like to build a pressure or siphon system but in reading some of the posts on Altfuelfurnace worries me a bit. I'm by no means afraid to jump in on something but I prefer to have some sort of "baseline" info/knowledge under my belt. I have none. I haven't even found detailed plans to do it. From plans, I would be more comfortable. But then, the diagnosing after it's built seems a little daunting.
I also seen where if I were to just purchase the parts instead of trying to fab it myself, I was looking at somewhere around 600.00 to convert. (ouch)
I will check out your system, Russ, before I fire up the plasma. It's just that I am so totaly inexperienced at it, it bothers me a bit. Wish there were others around here, of like mind, that I could go and get a "hands on" crash course from. The internet is an awesome tool with an infinite amount of info, but I still like "hands on". ;D
Either fortunately or unfortunately, I do have a filter system already built that I can use to clean my oil. It would be a waste with a "drip system", I know. It's a (Dieselcraft) centrifuge setup in a 55 gallon drum. It was originally intended to clean wvo. I thought it would be cool to run my wmo thru it if I were to make a pressure system.
Thanx again for your time guys. I will see if I can find Russ's setup. (plans?)
Thanx,
Chaz
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Chaz,
This is what helped me build my siphon heater.http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24280 (http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24280)
Not step by step but a lot helpful information.
Also ckBurner was very helpful.
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Check out my project here:
http://wasteoilheaterforum.com/index.php?topic=36.0
Yea, the ckburner kit is nice, but a little pricey.
Let me know if you have any questions.
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OK, well, I called a guy who knows a little about these fuel oil furnaces like I have and he thinks he might be able to give me a hand with the conversion.
Here is the first obstacle that could kill it before I even get going:
We took the gun out and inside the steel "tank", "drum", whatever, there is a fire brick, ummm, ....... almost like a two piece tube/ring (verticle like the "tank") that the gun shoots into, about 12" tall or so. From the tip of the gun to the back wall of that fire brick tube, it is only 8". I understand I need 12". That's using the stock blast tube which is 7.75" long. Can I just back the blast tube/gun assembly out 4" and set fire brick around the blast tube instead of the refractory wool that they have around it? I can re-mount the gun then without any problem. Or do I have to gut the fire brick tube out of the tank and put some other fire brick in against the wall?
If that issue can be worked around, I guess the next thing is to start buying parts. :-\ The CK stuff IS nice but I need to save a buck where I can. Any other suggestions?
Thanx for the sites, Russ and Doug. I went thru them once but need to go back again since my friend gave me some info on what I have and how it works. That will help in understanding what I'm reading. I'm hoping there are some good parts info there. If I just had more experience with this, I'd make "some" of it as I have a welding/fab shop. I'm just not sure what's going on yet. For the next furnace - if there is one - I could probably save a bunch more money building parts.
Thanx for the encouragement guys. Unfortunately, I think I will be bugging you all a bit. But I will at least be using the furnace in a better way................. I hope. ;)
Chaz
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No problem, your not bugging us. Thats what the forum is for, to share information. My furnace has a very small combustion area also. It is an oval shape, that sits vertical. The inside is lined with some sort of fire resistant material. I dont actually have bricks in mine, but from what I understand, this material gets red hot and helps with the combustion. I know mine isnt very far from the blast tube to the back of the furnace. I doubt it is 12 inches and it works just fine. I played around with different tip angles and ended going with a wider angle tip (I think. It has been a while). Its maybe not the optimal distance for burning waste oil, but I think it should work fine for you. I would concentrate on getting a heater block made, get a cartridge heater, PID controller, and thermocouple. Heat that oil up and shoot it in and see what happens. That is if you were thinking of staying with a pressure system. :)
One other question, how are you going to use the furnace? Will you just use it to heat up the garage once in a while, or are you going to want it to maintain a temp and leave it run all the time.
I just use mine to heat the garage up every so often. Sometimes every night. I start it and leave it run until it is 75 or so, then shut it off. Mine wouldnt work on a thermostat too well, as it requires a little hotter temp to get it started, then I manually turn down the controller to the normal temp. I think a siphon system might be a little better in that department.
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Hey Russ,
I was willing to pay the price for the ckBurner kit. I don't have any friends at all let a lone one that would machine a block for me. What would be some alternatives or ideas to getting a cheap block heater for a pressure system.
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The ck kit is a work of art and worth the money for a siphon system(oil and air), to pressure feed you need to only heet the oil. Find an aluminum block (or brass) 7" long 1'wide by 2" high. Drill two holes 3/8 inch. one hole all the way through with one end tapped 1/8 npt the other tapped for the nozzle. Other hole only 6"deep its for the cartridge heater. This will heat the nozzle as well
Or you could use two brass pipe nipples 1/8 npt. one 8 inch long the other 6 inch but without threads.
Put a standard nozzle holder one one end of the 8". Clean and flux outside of pipe with sta silv. clamp the pipe together side by side and silver braze the together.
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I was planning on heating my shop - thru the night if it seems possible - once it's going. I wasn't going to heat over night with the "drip" but if I'm going to go thru with a more elaborate system, I may as well go for broke and do a siphon and try to use it 24/7. I have access to enough oil. And I have a couple air compressors.
I am going to buy what I can from ck. I would normally be adament about doing exactly that if times were "normal", as I like to patronize people who truly help us out as well, but money is a little funny (I'm a metal sculptor). But my problem is, I just don't know what I need to buy exactly. Like part no#'s, etc. I know you mentioned relays, thermocouples, controllers, etc., but are there only one type/kind/size? I'm sorry, but I have no idea what exactly to use. Heck, maybe it doesn't even matter, but I don't know.
I read about the 12" distance on the ck site. I guess I can ask them about it. It sounds as tho they could be good people to help with stuff like that. My guess is they are still small and caring. I like that and patronize such people as much as I can.
Thanx for the help so far!!!
Chaz
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For cheap do this.
Im glad you work metal
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I read about the 12" distance on the ck site. I guess I can ask them about it~
Thats the chamber depth
Pull out the burner from your furnace,stick in a tape measure in the hole till it hits the back of chamber, read measurment at lip of refractory. If you have 12 or more you are good to go, if not then the chamber is to small for waste oil. Waste oil burns slower therefore creates longer flame pattern than 1 or 2 oil.
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For cheap do this.
Im glad you work metal
Looks simple enough. How do you regulate the heat with this set up?
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Thanx Doug. You took the question right off my fingertips. :)
I can build js=ust about anything but I don't necessarily know how to make it work. ;D I love the creating part and look forward to doing it I just don't know how all this works together.
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Looks simple enough. How do you regulate the heat with this set up?~
Ohh dang I forgot a few important details- Wile brazing them together add into the joint area a 1/4" coupler (used to join all thread, looks like a super fat 1/4" nut), this is were the thermocouple fits in. or if you get enough fill in the joint (sil phos) drill and tap.
I use this pid and k thermocouple
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350267486390&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Add a relay and cartridge heater and you are set.
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When making the short pipe " be sure the inside diameter is an exact 3/8" or 1/2" as you want a good fit for the cartridge heater.
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Seems reasonable. Is that what you did or are you just aware of doing it?
The latest issue I "THINK" I may have resolved is increasing the combustion chamber length to the "target". It was only about 9" and I read where you need 12". I just used fire brick and KAO wool (creamic wool) to make a square tunnel leading to the round hole the burner was in. Do you guys know of any reason this won't work? Here are some pix:
(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/Skulptor/DSC00143.jpg)
(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/Skulptor/DSC00146.jpg)
You can see the round firebrick fire box back inside the furnace. I hope the round burner in a square hole won't have any adverse effects.
Thanx for the help!
Chaz
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Thanks Dead Eye. My mind lacks imagination. It's the same way my siphon is controlled. A 1/4" coupler what a simple way to mount the thermocouple.
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Chaz,
In my furnace the refractory was crumbling apart. I was under the impression that refractory was only used as a sound deadener. So I took the refractory out and didn't replace with anything. If I'm wrong in doing that somebody please tell me so I can make it right :-\.
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Chaz,
In my furnace the refractory was crumbling apart. I was under the impression that refractory was only used as a sound deadener. So I took the refractory out and didn't replace with anything. If I'm wrong in doing that somebody please tell me so I can make it right ~
VERY BAD idea Chaz, Refractory is very high temp insulation that protects the steel from melting,warping,cracking,and general fatigue.
I was on a recent call (Fire dept) were the oil boiler (not modifyed but about 15 year old) burned out the combustion chamber. The unit was sitting on a concrete pad that got so hot it started the floor under it smoldering.
I ran big boilers at work (12 million btu vapor heaters) for 10 years, we took them apart every year and repaired the refractory.
It is even more important to have good refractory when the cycle rate is high (fire on,fire off) as the steel will expand and contract with each cycle leading it warpage and cracking, once a crack is there the superheated gas will blow through it and become a big hole very fast.
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The proposed extension may work as you plan but I see a few pitfalls in it, first is the leak on the mount plate see attached pic.
2nd is the mount plate will need to be extended , made into a liped box of sorts so the burner is not to far inside.
3rd is if combustion is not complete (often a issue when tuning these set ups) the wool and brick will saturate will unburned oil leading to God only knows what.
Safety First.
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Dead Eye,
It was me that removed the refractory from the burn pot. Now I have to find out how to replace it.
Anybody have any suggestion? Fire brick? I see there's several diffirent types of refactories.
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The easy way is to order from Aireco or ReMichael or any HVAC supply the factory replacement. Have Model and serial numbers with you. Most residential units have that roundish hut looking deal in them. Firebrick works but I stopped using it years ago in preferance of plastic refractory
http://refwest.com/plastic.aspx
The plastic is ment for bigger industrial boilers, it "works" like half dryed out play doe, you put a piece in place then use a air hammer or dead blow hammer (orange plastic hammer) to tamp it into place. I would be carefull with the tamping force as the residential units are thin steel. If you need it overhead or vertical for a good distance up then you need to tack weld pins on the wall to hold the refractory in place till cured.
To cure/harden the plastic run heat on it, take your sweat ole time do it slow, if you fire it to fast the escaping steem from within will make cracks in it ( you will allways get a few hair line cracks no biggie). Start with an electric heater for a day then salamander heater
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Thanx Dead Eye.
In reference to your pitfalls (Which I GREATLY appreciate your insight!) I have new gasket material for the mount plate. The leak was with the old fuel oil set up before I got the furnace so a new gasket should be the ticket.
I'm not sure what you are saying with the second? ??? It's my thinking that the burner is going to actually be "back" further (out the front of the furnace) since I had to increase the distance from the nozzle to the "target". (sorry, I'm not seeing what you're saying) I am basically moving the round mounting plate that goes around the burner tube and mounts to the front wall of the furnace, up 3" towards the nozzle end of that tube. That will give me the 12" that I understand is necessary from the nozzle end to the target. But, I think this may also give undue leverage to the whole burner assembly on that plate, so I was going to make a stand/mount to go under the back, "heavy end" of the burner assembly to help support it. It will be sticking out past the front door of the furnace that covered all that up so I will have to make a "box" and attach (weld) it to the door to cover it up to make it less unsightly.
In regards to the third, do you think blowing the flame thru the "square tunnel" of fire brick then thru the round original hole in the burn chamber will effect the flame and burn? Oooohhhh I hope not. ??? This way worked out real well as far as creating it. I can fab up a stainless pan/tray or tunnel if necessary to keep any excess oil from saturating the "tunnel" brick or KAO wool.
I'm also wondering if I should maybe open up a small (or whatever size) opening in the top of the "tunnel" back at the mounting plate, to allow a circulation of air from the firebox back to the "beginning" of the tube and maybe help with bringing the flame forward. Just a thought since the nozzle is usually closer to the burn box.
Thank you guys for all the help and suggestions!!! And PLEASE give more if you have them!!! I think the next thing is to call ck burners and get my "stuff".
Thanx again,
Chaz
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here are a few visulizations to help. The entire burner must come back at least 3 inch plus IF the tube you have is not 8"or 9" then that also. See my post in plan section were I extended my tube to hold the ck block, you can see the weld.
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Thanx Deadeye. I think that is what I have done. Here is a rough sketch of what it was originally, then what I have done, and then what it would look like if you looked in where the burner goes. My concern is how the flame might react going from the burner, to about one and a half inches of a 4" square fire brick tunnel, then thru the original 4" round hole (where the burner use to go thru), then into the fire box.
If it all seems feasible, I'll continue on, otherwise, if someone knows it won't work or there will be problems, I'd like to save myself the trouble and then do something else.
As you can tell, this sort of thing bewilders me a little as I have no experience in it and really want to do it correctly - as best I can - the first time. I have built Hot Rods and major industrial machinery but when it comes to furnaces and fire, I'm a little tentative. :) As has been said, "safety first". That is also why with this one, I will probably buy most all of the conversion stuff from ck. Then once I get a grasp of it, if I do another one, I may create more of the stuff myself.
(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/Skulptor/img004.jpg)
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Looks like it should work out ok, These waste oil conversions are often trial and error with the combustion chamber design. #1 and 2 oils have a very low flash point compared to heavy oils. There is a lot a talk at altfuel group about the dreaded wet fire box, were unburned fuel soakes the chamber walls, the fix is what they call a liner or burn tube, this holds the fire and fuel together so it completes combustion. I am having a hard time explaining it~ Anyhow the small start of a square tunnel and the round hole could be beneficial in this respect, holding the heat in the spray of oil.
Here is a diagram I am about to do. The 10" pipe is built and a tial run had wet walls inside, I will but a tube inside the help finish off combustion.
(http://www.deadeyestudio.com/heatercad.jpg)
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Anyhow the small start of a square tunnel and the round hole could be beneficial in this respect, holding the heat in the spray of oil.
Thanx Deadeye. If it comes down to it, I can always fab something from stainless sheet or plate to rectify the problem......... I guess.
I appreciate the input!
Chaz
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Dead Eye,
Thanks for the description and diagram of a wet fire box and the fix. I've read about it but didn't understand.
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Hmmmm... I think I got it. Thanx Deadeye.
But I wonder if i should make a stainless tube about 3" long that the burner end can go into and then extend thru the round hole in the burn chamber? My concern has been that the "corners" where the square meets the round. I think if the flame is narrow enough it will go thru the round hole without hitting those corners too much. But my guess is that if it does hit those corners it could "oil soak" them. But that's just speculation on my part.
But, what I think you are saying is that I can do an extension of the burner "after" the nozzle and into the burn chamber. Basically about 3" long. It would also have to be 4" diameter as that is the size of the round hole. So it would be a tight fit around the burner tube. Do you think that is ok?
Thanx again for all the insight!
Chaz
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Look at how Dutch John at altfuel built his extension " Just add on to the box and a door to mount burner on,makes clean out a snap.
I like this method.
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I went to his picture section but it doesn't show the inside, at least not what I need to see.
I'm wondering if I make the "tunnel" a "trough" with the top open all the way thru from the front wall thru to the firebox if that would help. Or if I can just leave it a tunnel?
Come to think of it, I may just be wondering out loud. ;) I guess it's just time to fire it up and get dirty. ;D I just prefer to make at least MOST of my mistakes on paper, (or computer, as it were) ::). At least that's the way I do the other things I design. :)
So........... what I am going to try is firing it the way it is and see if it works. Then start adding stainless. i.e. "U" shaped trough from as far back as the front wall to a lip that goes inside the fire box and maybe a target as I think I understand they can help. Then, if that has problems, maybe take the top off the "tunnel" to make a trough which puts the top of the burner into the same "area" (I guess is the word) as the firebox.
Now, if any of that sounds futile or just won't work, PLEASE let me know. I will GREATLY appreciate the time savings. Not to mention the hassle and mess. ;D
Thanx
Chaz
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Well I am a bit confused by your drawing and the pix. The pix look to be a square (rectangle) firebox with the hut type refractory sitting there with its round hole. The drawing shows the steel casing wrapped around the hut is this the case?
Can you remove the hut and have a empty square steel box?
If so, extend the box line it with fire brick or plastic refractory and put a big door on it with a 4 1/4'" hole to mount the burner on.
The big door is a pluss as clean out will need to be done every month or so.
This is why my build is all so very simple made from 10" pipe with flanges, to be easy to clean.
Cheers D.E.
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Hey DE,
Actually, the fire brick "box" (hut, I guess you are calling it?) is round and conforms to the round"steel casing" in which it is enclosed. (I'm sorry, I don't know all the proper terms and names.) The one photo "kind of" shows it back there, but not a great shot. The fire brick (hut??) is about 1" or so smaller than the steel ____ (tube/casing). It's a very nice looking "hut" with a tapered in lip at the top. I'd like to keep it/use it if possible, since it does just fit in there perfect. So yes, it is all "round".
So what I did was just form a fire brick "tube" back to the opening/access panel. It is square but the flame has to go thru the 4" round hole in the "hut" to get into the chamber. I can open the top of the "tunnel" up if that would be help in the burn. I was thinking the heat coming back around might be a good thing but, they did not have it that way. They had ceramic wool stuffed all around the burner tube, I suppose to protect it. That is why I made a "tunnel" instead of a "trough". I'm just a little concerned about having the burner nozzle 3" back from the actual inside of the "hut". And having to "shoot" thru the round hole in the hut. But that gives me the full 12" to the "target side" of the hut.
I have no problem making/adding a steel box extension, but I'm not sure it would help. (??) Can you help me with that? The access panel that has the burner hole in it, is pretty good size already. It's big enough that I could take the "hut" out, in the 2 pieces in which it was made, if I need to.
I hope that makes things a little easier to understand.
Thanx for putting up with my inexperience and all the help,
Chaz